Weeks of protests for freedom in Kiev, as predicted, are quickly escalating into deadly clashes. The Ukrainian government, aligned with Vladimir Putin, are cracking down on unarmed protesters and using deadly force. The death toll is now exceeding fifty. Is this a remnant battle of the cold war (unlike Mr. Will, I doubt it is the last one)?
Update:
TOM: Ukraine Unravels
The day we pretended to care about Ukraine...
Ukrainian priests pray at protests...
Protestors take Kiev, president flees to Russia border...
Ex premier Tymoshenko freed from prison...
Is freedom ringing in Kiev and Caracas?
Post at BSC News (about Ukraine and Venezuela)
HEARTBREAKING PHOTO: Medics sing national anthem as 12 bodies taken out of Hotel in Kiev. Via @pwaldieGLOBE pic.twitter.com/m8ucNor8nl
Update:
TOM: Ukraine Unravels
The day we pretended to care about Ukraine...
Ukrainian priests pray at protests...
Protestors take Kiev, president flees to Russia border...
Ex premier Tymoshenko freed from prison...
Is freedom ringing in Kiev and Caracas?
Post at BSC News (about Ukraine and Venezuela)
HEARTBREAKING PHOTO: Medics sing national anthem as 12 bodies taken out of Hotel in Kiev. Via @pwaldieGLOBE pic.twitter.com/m8ucNor8nl
— PzFeed Top News (@PzFeed) February 20, 2014
#Kiev burns as violence continues - smoke visible now from miles away. #Ukraine #euromaidan #UkraineProtest pic.twitter.com/4EeHvniqKr
— Maxim Tucker (@MaxRTucker) February 18, 2014
pic via @HugoVik2: "miss Ukraine 2013 is volunteering on #euromaidan" #ukraineprotest #євромайдан #Ukraine #kiev pic.twitter.com/HcQP6yfL7E
— Joze Biscak (@JozeBiscak) December 9, 2013
Another spectacular panoramic shot of #Kiev #Ukraine #Ukraineprotest #EuroMaidan pic.twitter.com/ddQ49HW38q
— Julia Davis (@JuliaDavisNews) December 11, 2013
The story I read stated that protestors were stating that they broke the truce and instigated the violence. From the NYTs (which seems to be in favor of the protestors overthrowing a democratically elected government, it should be noted):
ReplyDeleteThe fighting shattered a truce declared just hours earlier. Just after dawn, young men in ski masks opened a breach in their barricade near a stage on the square, ran across a hundred yards of smoldering debris and surged toward riot police officers who were firing at them with shotguns.
Protesters pushed back the police in a continual racket of gunshots and by around 10 a.m. had recaptured the entire square, but at the cost of creating a scene of mayhem.
Frankly, I don't see why a country that borders Russia is any concern of ours. We haven't much cared for the Russians/Soviets mucking around in our part of the world.
I am not suggesting we physically intervene. But the protesters are pro west and the government is pro Putin and Russia. No, the protesters are not in the wrong here and not trying to over throw a "democratic" government. Unless you mean in the old school communist/USSR way of calling stooge governments "democratic"
DeleteELB, I just read something this morning where one of the opposition leaders stated that the current President won the job in a fair election. He continued with, "But ....", which didn't seem all that convincing to me. If they ADMIT they can't win at the ballot box in a fair election....
DeleteAnd again, why should I care what the Russians and the Ukrainians are doing to each other? I admit, I' worried about what happens to Vassily Ivanchuk, his family, and others, but that's still no reason for me to think it's really any of my damned business. There's enough trouble in the world without going in search of it.
Besides, we can't even get control of our own fucking government, so why should we be lecturing others on theirs so long as they stay out of our business?
And who cares if these protestors are pro-West? Our own elites aren't pro-West, so what good the opinion of a bunch of Ukrainians that think starting a fight with armed police is a good idea? This is the king of neo-Con and neo-Liberal bullshit that has gotten us into nation building projects in shitholes like Afghanistan, Iraq and Detroit.
DeleteI disagree. No one is saying send in jets or troops from the US, this is purely bully pulpit stuff. And yes, we should shame the Europeans into supporting the right side of this. We certainly have more interests here than fucking up Syria as Obama did in his bungling way.
DeleteThen again, the first rule of helping is "do no harm." Maybe we can't trust the Obama Administration to do anything right and he is better off doing nothing at all.
Yep, remember that whatever the USA does, it will be Obama in charge of implementing it. And would you trust him to mow your yard at this point? He'd not only kill all the grass in the neighborhood, but would probably open a Hellmouth by the barbeque pit as well.
DeleteKilling unarmed protesters, huh?
ReplyDeleteDidn't work out so good for the Czar.
ed, there's a line of thinking that believes a lot of misery would have been averted if Kerensky had been willing to kill a few more protestors. Not saying the viewpoint is correct, but it does have a certain logic to it.
DeleteIcepick said ...
ReplyDeleteThis is the king of neo-Con and neo-Liberal bullshit that has gotten us into nation building projects in shitholes like Afghanistan, Iraq and Detroit.
Those of us in Detroit would be delighted with maybe 5% of the billions spent on Iraq & Afghanistan...hell we'd be happy with what New Orleans got. There has been zero "nation re-building " in Detroit, unlike the effort in New Orleans. Progressive liberal shit-heads told us to drop dead, so we did. BTW...we have been governed by the likes of Obama since 1974, and 10 years before that by white spineless liberals. That said, I presume we deserve what we have. But so did New Orleans...say whot?
You've had liberal leaders re-building Detroit since 1964 - how much more democracy can you guys stand? I say, "Mission accomplished!", declare victory and bring the boys home!
DeleteAnd now we're trying to spread this vision of democracy around the world. Really, let's just butt-out already unless we have actual interests somewhere. (We had interests in Afghanistan - namely, killing the people that killed ours. Everything else has been bullshit and a waste of time, money, prestige, and lives.)
New Orleans was also a liberal Dem shit-hole...but look at the federal & national attention they got post Katrina. We have the longest serving Dem Congresspersons and we still got nothing but bupcus, including from the Obamessiah. Detroit is the plantation don't you know....
DeleteAlso, not only did the protestors start the current round of violence, they were hardly unarmed. The gallery here shows protestors hurling Molotov cocktails, carrying axes and clubs, and at least one with either a riffle or shotgun. And they did manage to capture at least a few police officers. (Accounts on how many vary.)
ReplyDeleteThe protestors may or may not be justified in their actions, but they're not exactly using civil disobedience.
(The gallery isn't always loading well - it looks like one of the more popular galleries on the web at the moment.)
Also, even if the regime(s) they're fighting against are bad, that doesn't automatically make them the good guys. For recent examples see the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan a few decades back, or various factions fighting to overthrow the (oppressive, or worse) governments of Egypt, Libya and Syria in the last three or four years.
DeleteThis looks like a case where we ought to issue a statement stating that we favor a peaceful resolution, are willing to act as intermediaries for negotiation IF the parties involved all agree (and they won't), and are otherwise quite happy to keep our noses out of it. If the Europeans or any of our other allies feel differently, that too is their business.